Veterinary Blueprints
The Veterinary Blueprint Podcast is all about taking the blueprint of industry experts and breaking it down in short, digestible episodes you can use to take your practice to the next level. Join host Bill Butler as he interviews experts on client and practice management, financial strategies, human resources, and more. Gain valuable insights and stay ahead in the veterinary field by tuning in to tips from successful experts inside and outside the veterinary industry.
Veterinary Blueprints
Innovating Veterinary Practices: Harnessing Diverse Minds with Dr. Temple Grandin
Dr. Temple Grandin shares insights on enhancing animal welfare through fear-free practices and understanding diverse thinking styles in veterinary medicine. She emphasizes the importance of exposure, mentorship, and empathy in creating positive experiences for animals in veterinary settings.
• Adoption of fear-free practices for better animal handling
• Importance of recognizing different thinking styles in veterinary staff
• Strategies for reducing fear in animals during veterinary visits
• Practical approaches to pain management in both pets and production animals
• Future of veterinary medicine and the impact of private equity on care quality
Host Information
Bill Butler – Contact Information
Direct – 952-208-7220
https://butlervetinsurance.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/billbutler-cic/
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Welcome to the Veterinary Blueprint Podcast brought to you by Butler Vet Insurance. Hosted by Bill Butler, the Veterinary Blueprint Podcast is for veterinarians and practice managers who are looking to learn about working on their practice instead of in their practice. Each episode we will bring you successful, proven blueprints from others both inside and outside the veterinary industry. Welcome to today's episode and outside the veterinary industry.
Bill Butler:Welcome to today's episode. Welcome to this episode of the Veterinary Blueprints podcast. I'm your host, bill Butler, and this is a special episode with a special guest. I'm honored to be joined by Dr Temple Grandin. She's a renowned animal behavior expert, autism advocate and professor at Colorado State University. Diagnosed with autism at a young age, she utilized her unique perspective to revolutionize humane livestock handling designing facilities worldwide. Her latest book, visual Thinking the Hidden Gifts of People who Think in Pictures, patterns and Abstractions, delves into the strengths of visual thinkers and advocates for their inclusion and education in the workplace. Temple's life and work are portrayed in the Emmy award-winning film Temple Grandin and in 2010, time named her as one of the 100 most influential people in the world. So welcome, temple. It's great to be here. Thank you, so welcome. Welcome.
Temple:Temple. It's great to be here.
Bill Butler:Thank you. So we got connected through Dr Marty Becker, who is a connector at large, and I'm just grateful to have you on the podcast to be able to share with our audience and what your thoughts are in the current marketplace for veterinarians and some fear-free, which we'll dive into. But my burning question to start Temple is what, when you were in high school or a young woman and you went to that farm in New Hampshire, what was it about horses that captivated you at a young age?
Temple:Well, I want to emphasize that students have to get exposed to things to get interested in them, and horses and cattle I was exposed to both as a teenager and I was not a good student and they put me to work cleaning nine stalls every day and taking care of the horses and feeding the horses. And then I also spent hours getting practicing for the 4-H equitation show and for the trail class, where you've got to open the mailbox. Spent a lot of time practicing that. I had a roommate, carol, and we both rode horses together and horses were a refuge away from bullying and teasing.
Bill Butler:The cafeteria.
Temple:That was like bullying and teasing. That was the worst place. And then I went out to my aunt's ranch at age 15, and I got the love of the West started and the beef cattle. Again, students have to get exposed to things to get here.
Bill Butler:Well, you mentioned being a poor student and I was a very poor student in school as well. I had troubles in math and English, probably some undiagnosed ADHD and some spectrum issues that you know you talk about in the book and it's a range of spectrum and I really struggled to graduate. My mom, as we had chatted about before coming on, was a special education background, but I wound up joining the military and excelled when I was in the military because it was a very structured environment. I was able to excel because all that what did you do in the military?
Bill Butler:I was in the infantry so I did you know you go here and you wear this. You do that.
Temple:I would tend to be attracted over to fixing vehicles. Sure, because in my book on visual thinking I talk about a kind of a thinker. That's called an object visualizer. And good with animals because animals live in a sensory-based world. But object visualizer is also very good with mechanical things, because you just see how something works. But the weak area is algebra. Algebra in the abstract just doesn't make any sense to me. Now I can learn a formula for some specific thing, like sizing an air cylinder on a piece of equipment, because I then see the piece of equipment. And I worked with a lot of very talented machinery designers when I was out designing equipment. They had big shops. They couldn't do algebra either, but they could build anything.
Temple:And then another kind of mind is the visual, spatial mathematician. They think in patterns. Music and math go together. They're the pattern thinker and they do the types of engineering that need mathematics. But in order to build things, you need to have both visual thinkers and the mathematical thinkers. And then, of course, there are the word thinkers that think in words.
Bill Butler:Sure. So you know, tying the kind of two first points together. What are your thoughts on making sure exposing students to things so that they know what is a good fit for them? How do you think helping you know poor students who aren't good? I failed every algebra class. I took my junior year of high school kids with learning disabilities, autism, who are on the spectrum, to expose them to as much as you can to find what they're good at.
Temple:Well, you find out what they're good at, and it was obvious when I was a little kid I was good at art and my mother always encouraged that and she encouraged me to do lots of different media.
Temple:Then you have another kid's going to take off with math and we're not developing our math kids. I read all about the new Chinese AI and the guy who invented that was a total math geek. I mean he did calculus for fun when he was in ninth grade. It's a math kid. We're not developing them and they get bored doing baby math and they need to be moved ahead. We need our different kinds of minds. We need my kind of mind. Fix mechanical things, build mechanical stuff. If you like the water system to work, you're going to need my kinds of mind. And then the mathematician in something like a food processing plant designs a refrigeration, because that requires a lot more math.
Bill Butler:So, for a veterinary practice who has many different people working at it, with different visual thinking styles or not visual styles, different thinking styles what do you recommend for, you know, a veterinary practice trying to help work with a team across different areas?
Temple:Well, the first thing you have to realize is that different thinking exists. I didn't know that other people thought in words, until I was in my late 30s, that was a shock to me and when I wrote the book on visual thinking I wrote the rough drafts of the chapters. They were kind of disorganized and Betsy, my wonderful verbal co-author, she smoothed them all out. So, that's the different kinds of minds working together. Now you might have a veterinary technician who's a super visual thinker. That's just your animal whisperer.
Bill Butler:Gotcha.
Temple:Because they they just, you know, since they think in a sensory way, they just totally relate to the animals. And I'm worried that a lot of our educational programs are screening out the object visualizers. Because I can't do algebra, I never have to do it in the abstract. And then I go out into the field and I find people that own giant metal shops and they can't do algebra either. Then there's other things. You need algebra for Chemistry. Yes, you need algebra. I'm not going to be a chemist, but recognizing that we need these different skills. As I travel around I'm finding broken elevators, broken escalators, everywhere. They're just not being fixed Because there aren't enough mechanical minds, visual thinkers, out there. They probably would find they're a lot more interesting and I'm a big believer show kids lots of different things. I heard an interesting interview on the radio today.
Temple:A school in Colorado was getting high school kids out doing internships, maybe in a law office maybe at a veterinary clinic, maybe at a kindergarten, in different kinds of things, where they could try on different jobs. Well, I think that's just wonderful.
Temple:That's critical, I want to encourage that and I was greatly helped by mentors and and there's a lot of problems with, you know, short budgets and stuff in schools. You know, maybe we could tap into some of the retirees. You know retired chemists to come in and teach chemistry. You know somebody retired from a retired veterinarian to come in and teach a veterinary class. Right now I'm 77. I can't physically do the things I used to do.
Bill Butler:Yeah, but I can still teach.
Temple:I don't climb up feed notes anymore to take a picture that I wouldn't be caught dead doing now?
Bill Butler:Sure, one of the best things that I did in high school is I did a mentorship program for a trimester with a photographer and actually got to go leave high school and go work with a photographer as part of my photography class and photography mentorship, and that was just. It was so awesome being exposed to that while I was in school. So I think that's a big piece that's missing in education now.
Temple:One of the things I'd be doing is putting all the hands-on classes back in. We've got kids growing up today that have never used a ruler. I've had them in my class because they have to do a scale drawing. I had a student in my class. I tried to explain to her that if a cattle chute is 30 inches wide, that's two foot six. She didn't understand that. She's a college student, oh my. Maybe, they can do algebra, but how about some of the practical stuff?
Bill Butler:Absolutely the simple math. So we were introduced to each other from Dr Marty Becker and I know that you've been involved in Fear Free and some of the things that he's doing. What are you doing with fear-free and how do you see that as important to well-being of animals and pets?
Temple:I think it's really, really important and we've had a similar movement in cattle handling low-stress cattle handling and one of the advantage is less accidents to both animals and people. You're probably going to have less dog bites. If you're doing doing fear free and what I have learned on improving animal handling, I don't care if it's handling a dog or handling cattle. The top manager of the place has got to get totally behind it and want to do it and want to make it work.
Temple:Also, when you're learning low stress methods, it is slower when you're learning. Now, once you learn it, it's going to be faster. There's an old saying in cattle handling, slow is faster, but it is going to take time to learn it. And then, once you learn it, it's going to be a whole lot better and you're going to wonder why did you do the old ways of just forcing a dog down? You also need to be working with owners of puppies to get their puppy used to being handled by strange people, and then going to the vet clinics can be less scary, used to having its paws held for treats, so it's desensitized to some of these things.
Bill Butler:Sure, I was watching one of the videos with you and Dr Becker. Actually ata practice and you're talking about animals, fear of falling, and the first thing we do is we put them up on a slippery table or or the the, because they are a visual, they see something and something bad happens and they take a snapshot of that. Having different exam rooms what are some simple things that practices can do.
Temple:Let's get a non-slip floor on the exam table. And if you don't want to bother, let's say the busy veterinarian doesn't want to bother washing the mats. Well, you can have the owner bring in a mat they bought from Walmart with the rubber backing and then they take it home and they clean it and it should be a mat that the puppy is used to.
Temple:That's a very, very simple thing you can do, and it's equally important for cattle that have a non-slip floor and things like the table jiggles that makes their footing seem unstable. Animals don't like that. These are simple things that you can do. Another thing I would not have on the wall is big dog heads with staring eyes. Those pictures may look cute to people, but they're threatening to the pets.
Bill Butler:Sure, and I know that if there's an incident in a specific room, to document that and then maybe have each exam room look different. Could you talk about that and why? That's important for animals.
Temple:Yeah, animals can get fear memories based on a bad person, a bad place, something they were seeing right when something bad happened. I know a dog who was terrified of men wearing baseball hats. Baseball hats were bad. Well, it was a rescue and it was probably abused by a man wearing a baseball hat. That's an example of a visual fear memory. There's dogs that have had bad experiences at the veterinary clinic and as soon as the car makes certain turns, it knows where it's going. Sure, you know that would be an example of a fear memory. They'll associate a place, a person or maybe a piece of equipment with something bad. And it's very important that an animal's first experience with a new person, a new place, a new car be a good first experience. Sure, I'm going to teach the dog that it creates a good place, because if it's first experience let's say with your car is a really bad first experience, then it's going to be afraid of your car.
Bill Butler:Not getting in the car.
Temple:Well, and then if you get a different car, it might be somewhat better. Okay, because sometimes those visual experiences are kind of specific.
Bill Butler:Okay, so my mom had her dog in it was a Gordon Sutter and it must have had a bad experience because they went up the stairs at the practice when they brought it in and the dog would not go down the stairs when they were leaving. And my mom said afterwards like what happened between then and now that the dog doesn't want to go up or down the stairs.
Temple:Did it ever fall downstairs?
Bill Butler:Well, we don't know.
Temple:It's a rescue, you don't know.
Bill Butler:No, and it was in between, so it must have happened at the practice, while it was under treatment or something.
Temple:I don't know, but it may have fallen down the stairs. Yeah, Another question that comes up is should the vet wear the white coat? It all depends upon how the pet perceives the white coat. If the first experience of the white coat is pets and treating, you know, typical fear-free, then the white coat's going to be a good thing.
Bill Butler:Yeah.
Temple:If the white coat's associated with being roughly handled and held down, then take the coat off. Another thing that can help is changing the location of where you do the exam. Maybe do it out in the waiting room, do it out in the parking lot. That's because these fear. Memories do tend to be specific.
Bill Butler:Okay, and I know that there's some things on the horizon that you're working on with Dr Becker, as it relates to pain-free or some food production stuff. What's on the horizon and what would you like to see happen in the world of animal health?
Temple:Well, animals definitely do feel pain. I couldn't believe it. Years ago they used to do surgery on infants just with a paralytic agent. They didn't think little babies felt pain. This is ridiculous. And yeah, animals definitely feel pain. Yeah, you need to be giving them analgesics and and things like that to relieve pain. And it's the same thing in cattle. And the bad thing we've got with our farm animals, since they're prey species, they tend to cover up the fact they're hurting.
Bill Butler:So we've got with our farm animals, since they're prey species, they tend to cover up the fact they're hurting, and so you need to spy on them with video cameras so that they don't think anybody's watching, and then they're more likely to show the pain behaviors. Okay, how? How would that relate to a veterinary practice, or how would you relate that to a veterinary practice?
Temple:well, I think we need to be doing it. You know a lot. You know. Make sure they're given adequate painkillers for different things that we do. One of the problems we have out on the farm is controlled substances out on a farm. That's not something you want to have.
Bill Butler:Okay.
Temple:There's too many abuse potential things.
Bill Butler:Gotcha. Well, in your book Thinking in Pictures my Life with Autism, you talk about believing that a place that an animal dies is sacred and bringing ritual into conventional slaughter plants and can be used to help shape people's behavior. How is that important in the food production? But then also, how can that be adapted to a modern veterinary practice?
Temple:Well, let's give the dog a good experience. I get asked all the time do cattle know they're going to get slaughtered? And I found they behaved exactly the same way at the slaughterhouse, going up the chute as they did in the veterinary chute. And when you look at the research, the stress levels range from high to low depending upon how good their handling was, but it was the same range. Cattle are more afraid of a sharp shadow on the floor, a reflection, seeing motion through a crack in the side of the chute, seeing people up ahead, coats on fences. And you get rid of these distractions, then things can really improve.
Bill Butler:Sure. So how would that relate to a veterinary practice and having you know a specific room and an experience that's different than you know normal or you know for the team and the pet, but also the owners?
Temple:Well, the important thing is to have you know you want a calm animal coming in, so make that first experience really good pets and treats and all that kind of stuff and then you obviously want to get them vaccinated right away so you might bring the puppy back in that afternoon get the vaccine done.
Temple:sure, you don't want to wait very long on that because that could be. You know that could be a problem, but we're working with zoo animals. One of the things we found is you actually teach your animal to tolerate a pinch that's going to be worse than the injection, and they're willing to come in to get the yummy treats.
Bill Butler:Sure, one thing I've noticed in zoo veterinary stuff like there is so much treats and foods happening at a zoo with those animals versus what's happening at a veterinary practice with what you know Dr Becker is trying to implement with Fear Free across the country.
Temple:Well, I've been to veterinary conferences and I've got a picture of a lion putting its paw up onto a grating and having its nails trimmed while it's being fed neat meatballs out of some tongs, and I showed it at a veterinary clinic and sometimes I kind of shocked. There's a lion there trained to get a treat and put its paw up on a screen so its nails can be trimmed.
Bill Butler:I'm making a note about. We have a tuxedo cat Louie and I'm going to make a note about that to try and sort that out for him.
Temple:Well, they train it to jump up on a screen and put its paws against the screen, wow. And then you feed it treats, and then, of course, the nails come through the screen.
Bill Butler:Absolutely.
Temple:And it makes it easy to trim them.
Bill Butler:What are your thoughts on the future of veterinary medicine overall? You had talked about I heard you speak at the Minnesota Veterinary Medical Association and you talked about not screening out candidates and finding the right people. Where do you see the future of veterinary medicine?
Temple:Well, we need to find the right people. I know there's a lot of veterinarians that are getting totally stressed out on long hours. I don't really like the fact that private equity has bought up vet clinics and also bought up people clinics too, you know, then it's just rush, rush, rush and not take the time to see the patient and do things really right. I'm not a fan of that. Another one of my very big concerns is some of the dogs we're breeding uh, bulldogs that can't breathe. I have problems with that. We're also breeding some cattle with some problems. We're breeding so much for meat traits they're getting crooked feet or they're getting heart issues. You know, because you've just pushed the biology too hard and I really feel strong. We have got to breed animals that function, whether it's a livestock animal or it's a pet.
Bill Butler:Sure, and in closing Temple, I just want to say thank you again for taking the time to join me on the podcast and share some insights with our guests. If you were starting out in your animal behavior career and everything over, what would you like to change or what would you have done differently?
Temple:Well, one thing that's happening in the cattle industry is handling has gotten a whole lot better. That's really good, and more and more people are adopting fear-free. I think that's really a good thing. And there's some real problem animals where you need to give them a sedative. The dog's just been too traumatized. But let's say with the new puppies, let's work on training them and doing them right. Get them used to lots of different people, handling them gently, getting treats, and then you won't have to give them sedatives but there's some traumatized pets where you're just going to have to.
Temple:I know well, let's. This cat's just so traumatized you're going to have to give it sedatives sure but I I want to work on the behavior first. Because, uh, first of all cattle. We're not allowed to give them sedatives because they're food animal absolutely, um.
Bill Butler:In closing, I just again I want to say thank you. We'll get some links up and I know that you have a lot of speaking. You're out on the circuit speaking many, many places and we'll get the list up of of places you're speaking all across the country, uh, in the coming months, and I know that that list is out on your website as part of the autism uh, uh, autism research autism and we we need the skills of people that were autistic.
Temple:Einstein was autistic. I worked a lot of. I've worked with some ranchers I'm pretty sure were autistic. Bill Gates now has a new book and he says he'd be diagnosed with autism today if he was a child today.
Bill Butler:If there was one piece of advice that you could give parents out there to help with their children if they're experiencing difficulties, what would it be?
Temple:All right, I'll tell you how to get them off the video games Car mechanics. It's actually been very successful and I think working with animals also could do that. You've got to replace the video games with something else and there's been five or six cases where young adults were weaned off of video games with car mechanics and they found that that was more interesting and we need the skills of these people. Well, during covet I heard that the horse technician repaired all the anesthesia machines during COVID. Well, those are strictly mechanical devices, so he just figured out how to fix them.
Bill Butler:Sure Well, thank you for your time, Temple. I really appreciate it and we'll hopefully see you again very soon.
Temple:Well, no, and we need to get more and more veterinarians getting into fear-free and into low-stress ways and make sure that first visit is a real good time.
Bill Butler:Absolutely Well. Thank you so much.
Temple:Okay, great to talk to you.
